List of Interviews

• 

  Interview with T Chandroo (Dr)

  • Accession Number 004223, Track 2
  • How Chairman & CEO of Modern Montessori International pivoted into early learning services.

  "As we progressed, we- and also, as I saw the decline of sales of the books, we felt that, you know, as a matter of diversification, we saw a need to establish early learning services. Early learning, when I said early learning, preschool. The demand was there by parents, and they wanted us to provide these services. And they also mentioned to us that they could not find good kindergartens. The only kindergartens, the popular ones, were the church kindergartens. And most parents, you know, could not either the church kindergartens was too far awiay, or limited in number. So they were the ones, the parents were the ones who were pushing us to provide these personalised, you know, tutorial or teaching or reading services, their homes, or why don't you start a kindergarten? So then it dawned on me and, I discussed with my people, and I say, "Since there is this decline in the sales of children's books, why don't we do education services?" That's how it all started. So we started as an enrichment centre providing reading, tutorial, phonic services."

• 

  Interview with LEE, Richard Peng Boon (Dick Lee) 李炳文

  • Accession Number 004542, Track 2
  • Reasons for the singer-songwriter and 2004 Cultural Medallion recipient's return to Singapore after his studies in the UK.

  "I took my songs and sent them off to get publishing deals because I didn't really see myself as a performer, as a- as an artist. First of all, I was in England and I don't think there'd be any chance of that there being Chinese and all that. So I sent my demos off and I got a reply from Warner Chapel, which was a big publishing company at that time, still is, right? And I went to meet them and the thing that happened was when I walked into the room, the executive, the A&R guy was like shocked to see that I was Asian. Because he said didn't sound like it at all. But he said, then he looked at me and he said, you know what, you you, the most interesting thing about you is that you're Asian. And why is that not reflected in anything you do? And this brought me back to the whole question of identity.That I was not conscious about during the fried rice paradise incident when I actually wrote the song to try to make a Singapore song. I didn't quite understand why I wanted to do it. I just felt that, you know, we have our own traits, you know, but we don't seem to reflect it. And then I very quickly learned that it was not worth doing, right, when the song got banned. So I just put it out on my mind, but then he brought it up. And that made me think because I was about to graduate and I was thinking in my mind, I'm never going home. I'm going to just stay in England, right? Because I was so active in my four years there, I became part of the scene. And then I thought, well, you know, maybe I need to do this because if I stayed on, I'll forever be seen as the Asian, you know, and there there are, there is a very limited space for, in the in the pop culture world for an Asian to... to exist, you know, that time the only one I could think of was Kenzo. And I actually, you know, had a deal, they were one of the people that- that interviewed me or were interested in me. I had- I had three offers to... three job offers. So I realised that maybe at that- at that time I thought, maybe he's right, maybe I need to find this thing. I'll never find it here, right? And I'm Asian, but I'm not Chinese, so I don't go back to China. At that time, China was what, communist, right? Go back to Singapore and maybe see what I can find there. And that's that spurred me on to go home."

• 

  Interview with LIANG Peng 梁萍

  • Accession Number 004757, Track 6
  • Tracing the development and characteristics of Chinese broadcasting in Singapore from the 1970s-90s by a former Mediacorp Capital 95.8 Radio Presenter.

  "广播在70年代当我进去的时候，那个时候的分为79年末，是偏向于文学艺术的广播的。广播的发展在那个年代70年代，也就说注重于读些小品啊一些文章，就算是听众的信，我们也是照着听众的信读、回答。怎么回答也就是写下来的。当时也很多时候是写稿啊，不是说像现在就这么这么谈，要随性，广播风格不一样。当时也没有所谓的风格啊，就是说大家统一。播音就是这样子，非常严谨的，也没有。所以你也很难去分辨说这个人的风格怎样，那个人风格怎么样。统一的, 要求播音的格式是怎么样的。当然60年代、70年代、80年代、90年代，对语言，广播的这个语言语音方面是抓得很紧，很严谨的。所以整个的发展是大不相同。如果跟现在比较起来，是完全不一样，不一样是因为年代，时代的不同，是这么说的。那么80年代是法定机构下的市场，市场化的广播。80年代的广播，当时也就是我所谓的刚起步。那个时候是非常商业化，哦我就赶上那个时代的列车。商业化就代表着你要做很多产品的宣传推销，很多赞助商。哇，那个时候的广播真的是非常有趣，不过就是有点太多了，变成电台好像就是一个广告台。哇，那个时候非常的蓬勃，80年代、90年代，因为唱片行业很好，很多唱片公司就起来了。海外的歌星偏偏在新马一带打歌，从马来西亚打到新加坡或者从新加坡到马来西亚，都是这样的。唱片宣传蓬勃。那个时候我们就有很多唱片公司赞助我们电台的节目，所以那个时候我做的节目是商业化。因为那个80年代是一个市场化的广播，慢慢的走向这个市场，听众要什么我们就给什么。那个观念开始。以前不是，以前是我们设计什么，听众听什么。我们要求，我们有这样的节目，听众就听。不过后来就觉得说必须要跟着听众的喜好来做节目。这个有点点儿不一样。90年代就有很多电台出来了，在90年代。"

  Translation: When I started my broadcasting career at the end of 1979, programmes were still inclined towards literature and the reading of short stories. Letters from listeners were read out on air and we gave scripted answers. Most of the programming were also scripted, unlike the spontaneous style of hosting today. Due to this, every radio presenter followed a similar format and had no distinctive styles. From the 60s to the 90s, language use in broadcasting was very tightly controlled and monitored. However, this has relaxed with the changing times. In the 1980s, radio became frequently used for the marketing and promotion of commercial products. It was very interesting as we had many sponsors and revenue sources, but it also made the stations overly commercialized. The 80s and 90s also saw the rise of music recording companies, so radio became a popular platform for singers to promote their songs when they visited Singapore and Malaysia. This was the start of the era where radio started catering programmes to the needs of listeners, unlike in the past where programmes were dictated by the stations. Many broadcasting stations were also created in the 90s.

• 

  Interview with LIM Chuan Poh

  • Accession Number E000491, Track 3
  • The need to appeal to students' intrinsic passion in Science as observed by former Executive Chairman of A*STAR (2007-2019).

  "So given that, you know, our strategy is strong, robust core and then, you know, reach diversity or international. So the first part is to sustain and enthuse enough of young Singaporeans about science and interest in research as a career. Because if we cannot sustain that, then over time the core will weaken. So this is why we work very closely with MOE, with the Science Centre to do outreach, to give opportunities to these young Singaporeans to let them stay in touch with science, with research, to spark their curiosity. And sustain their enthusiasm, you know, over many years, from primary school to secondary school, of course, the older they are, the more things they can do with us, the further they can go in terms of doing research in our laboratory. So this is an ongoing effort. It is an increasingly challenging effort because we have reducing population cohort, first thing. Second thing is that Singapore has been so successful in creating so many interesting career opportunities you know, that young Singaporeans, you know, they have their choice as to what they want to do with their life. They don't have to think about research, you know. So this is an effort that we have to stay very focused and stay in very close traction, work with the wider community and just got to constantly make ourselves interesting to young Singaporeans. And I would say that, you know, a large part of that have to appeal to their intrinsic interests and passion in this area. You know, obviously we cannot compete a market in terms of extrinsic or motivated. We can never pay as much as, you know, if they were to become a investment banker, you know. So that's why we got to make science interesting to them. We got to arouse their passion in science and research, and this will be a really ongoing effort."

• 

  Interview with CHAN Heng Chee @ Hing Chee 陈庆珠

  • Accession Number E001051, Track 1
  • The early economic development models of the Republic of Singapore described by Diplomat and Academic, currently serving as the Ambassador-at-Large, Ministry of Foreign Affairs.

  "Now, so getting investments were important and top civil servants, Perm Secs, Sim Kee Boon, you know, one of the Hon Sui Sen, they all went out trying to get investors, to invest, and they began to listen to what American investors and European investors wanted. So yes, it was industrialisation, but what sort of industrialisation? My understanding was that in the early days, we were doing a lot of import substitution, but this was 1959. And very soon, Goh Keng Swee found that it didn't quite work, chucked it, and went on export orientation strategy, you know, not import substitution, but export orientation. And I think by the time, it was 1965, we already had that idea."

• 

  Interview with YEONG Yoon Ying 杨云英

  • Accession Number 004468, Track 6
  • Three life lessons as described by Director (Special Duties), Ministry of Communications & Information who served the late Mr Lee Kuan Yew for over 21 years.

  "Throughout the 21 years of, more than 21 of service for the late Mr Lee, three words always appear not only during his conversation with the media, but also you know when he met his friend overseas, and also how he treat(ed) his own cabinet colleagues. That is, once you committed, you deliver. That is the- that is the first things. Second thing is that friendship lasts longer than any other things. People's memory are short, but history is the one that kept all these things, good things, in your mind. And third thing is, no one is perfect. So, as a human being, you must be empathy. You must be open. And accept other people as who they are. Meaning that don't read the books by the cover. You must know them build up that kind of trust, and then this friendship really can last."

• 

  Interview with UPADHIAH, Suraj Prakash

  • Accession Number 004404, Track 1
  • Social entrepreneur, co-founder and director at Air Amber Pte Ltd on hearing the news of Mr Lee Kuan Yew’s passing.

  'So 2015, yup, we’re talking about the year that Mr Lee Kuan Yew passed away. Do you remember when you were in Thailand, how you first found out about his death? Yes, so the thing is... oh, because I mean, I suppose the context first is that, I... as in, Lee Kuan Yew is one of the people on my list, right? Like I have a list of, like in my, in my whatever you want to call it, in my CV or my paper, like, I always include like these are the people who have, who I feel have shaped either my thinking, my way of living, or my values. So people like my mum is on that list. People like my grandmother is on that list. But at the same time, people like Nelson Mandela, Martin Luther King and Lee Kuan Yew is on that list. Goh Keng Swee is on that list. And so obviously as soon as—in fact I heard privately first that he had gone into the hospital. And then of course after that I’m just trying to keep tabs on what’s happening, how serious is it, is he going to get out of it? And also just, yeah, so I mean the whole time I was texting different people. I was getting different information from different so-called informants or whatever that were telling me, and I was actually looking through my WhatsApp messages and it was, yeah it was like, I think I first—I suppose it was like, like I think two days before it was actually announced or what, someone had texted me—“He’s passed on” or what—and I shared it with, as in I was sharing it with my close group of friends: “It’s come from a very reliable source”. And then immediately of course, “This is very sad, what happens?” Blah, blah, blah. But yeah for me what I wanted to know was what was the plan lah. As in what was going to happen. Because obviously I wanted to go and see him."

• 

  Interview with SOM Mohamed Said

  • Accession Number 004760, Track 1
  • Challenges of the loss of face-to-face interaction and the remote learning of digital conferencing tools during the COVID-19 pandemic by 1987 Cultural Medallion recipient and Malay dance choreographer.

  "I have to do it, I have to learn. But this learning the Zoom is stressful for me. So who taught you? Who taught you to do- to operate Zoom? Okay. Before that, before that, the first person who teach me to do this, do that, press this, press that, is my son. My son, my daughter-in-law, who is the closest in the office, every day. Everybody teach until 17-18 times, you know, so many times until it's either this or that. Either this or that. Whether you can see me or you can hear my voice. Or sometimes, people don't see me at all. They wait for me. Madam Som, press this press that. It was so stressful. You know why it's so stressful? Because at that time, when beginning, nobody can come to me. Nobody can visit me at home. Okay now I talk I tears a while sorry. It's okay. Because I just can't reach out. They cannot come to my house."

• 

  Interview with BITTLESTON, John

  • Accession Number 004763, Track 3
  • Former CEO of Cerebos Pacific (1990-2011), chairman and founding mentor of Terrific Mentors International on the thinking behind an early advertisement for Brand’s Essence of Chicken.

  "Brands wasn't a big brand name, it was a local brand name. But Heinz was a world brand name. And Batchelors was another world brand name, and there were lots of these people. So what we did was we set the creative people the task, how can we communicate very effectively what this does in a way that doesn't show that we've proved it, but will convince people that we've proved it. And it was a brilliant copywriter who came up with the idea of having a voiceover commercial only, a lightbulb. And the lightbulb was glowing, and the lightbulb went dim, and the lightbulb came bright again. The simplest, one of the simplest commercials I've ever seen, and it made a huge impression on people, which was, which was all we needed. We didn't really want to give away our proof that it worked any more than we had to. And to this day, it's still, it's still used, that particular commercial from time to time."

• 

  Interview with PENG, Lee Er 彭丽儿

  • Accession Number 004807, Track 5
  • The involvement of former founder of Advanced Language Centre with Singapore Chin Kang Huay Kuan since 2006, the objectives of the Huay Kuan, and how the organisation aided Huay Kuan members in terms on employment and education.

  "所以呢我们现在谈回到我2006年我回去会馆做什么。那个时候的那个林光景会长。他有一个很艰巨的任务。就是说，他要怎么样把会馆，这个，继续的革新，然后再继续往前走。那么，我们会馆的历史。我就这十多年来，我就因为要编九十周年特刊，一百周年特刊的时候，就翻阅了很多很多我们的旧的档案啊，历史， 我就很佩服我们的老前辈。那我们知道，我上次也说过了，会馆的成立是在一百多年前，为了要接待或者帮助南来的乡亲。虽然那个时候就成立了会馆。然后。。。对于后面，战前我们的那些资料，因为我们那时候在日治时期被消毁，但是我们还有保留一些。后来我们现在要谈战后的那段时间。战后的这段时间，就1945年我昨天还在会馆看到我们1945年，我们叫复新。就是，我们这个战后-复新是我们会馆拿，我们从日军手中把会馆拿回来的时候，重新启动会馆后，他们叫做复新，或者第一节，1945。 那个筹委会的文件夹，我看到很高兴。然后，他们那个时候其实很不容易，因为拿回来会馆，那个会馆那个时候是，你知道在日治手中是一塌糊涂了。所以他们重新的翻新，整顿。然后他们马上做两件很重要的事情。因为你知道战后的时候，最困难的时候就是什么，一个就是事业问题。没有工作，生活都有问题。另外一个呢，就是失学。学生没有学上。然后他们就成立了两个很重要的组织，一个是互助部，一个就是晋江学校。然后互助部就是帮助那些这个有困难的乡亲。"

  Translation: So let’s talk about what I did when I returned to Chin Kang Huay Kuan in 2006. At the time, President Lim Guang Jing had the challenging task of renewing the clan association and leading it into the future. In the course of my research for the association’s 90th and 100th anniversary publications, I came across many old documents and records that filled me with great admiration for our predecessors. As I have mentioned earlier, the association was founded more than a hundred years ago to look after the welfare of fellow Jinjiang clansmen. However, many of our pre-war documents were destroyed during the Japanese Occupation. After the war in 1945, the association had to start anew and go through an arduous revamp. To address the urgent issues of unemployment and lack of education, the association’s executive committee immediately set up a relief section for social assistance, as well as the Chin Kang School to provide education.

• 

  Interview with NG Wee Nee

  • Accession Number 004830, Track 2
  • President of the Tibetan Buddhist Centre on the resident monk's gradual shift in attitudes towards online dharma classes during the early stages of the COVID-19 pandemic.

  "In monastry and all these, nobody, they have never done online classes at all. For him and the monastry, it's strict. If you see a student, if online, you off the screen I cannot see your face. Don't know what you're doing. As a teacher, he is that, he wants to maintain, there's this, what we call, Dharma pract- a good one that discipline, he want to see the student lazy or not. He's a very serious teacher. So he say, cannot see the face, that's a bit difficult right? Then... then what's the point of attending class, they're not listening. So he has that mindset. And then, yeah. So he says that yeah everybody off their screen maybe they're eating you know but he has that thinking he wants it discipline like army style, so. But, but he has his good point, right? So we manage commune because there's no way we can do anything now. So that's the situation now. So he thinks that COVID is not that serious. But along the way, he was, the neighbours got COVID he got locked here and many things. So he has his own preference and then, we respect him, let him decide. But with certain things that impact the regulations we have to follow, so we online. Eventually, after he started the first one, not too bad. The only things struggle with the mind all these things and we had to have someone come down to set up for him the first two time. Subsequently everybody come is staggered you cannot meet each other so all these was in place, then everybody goes work from home, so we spent a lot of time figure out Zoom."

• 

  Interview with ARLANDO, Aloysius

  • Accession Number E001077, Track 1
  • Former President of the Singapore Association of Convention & Exhibition Organisers and Suppliers, SACEOS, talks about the impact of Covid-19 on Singapore's MICE Industry and how it pushed the industry to accelerate adoption of technology.

  "Given that the government decided to place the lives of Singaporeans first right? In introducing tight restrictions, how do you think that this specifically disrupted the MICE industry, like how did it disrupt the MICE industry differently compared to say, other kinds of industries that require face-to-face? Right. So, the MICE industry the events industry in general, thrives on face to face and human to human interaction. And when that is being severely curtailed will in face or removed, immediately the industry stops functioning. And face to face and human to human interaction involves travel, involves meeting people from different walks of life  and backgrounds and countries. Which means that once air travel stopped, and events stopped, essentially the death knell of the industry. And therefore the MICE industry had to really think pretty quickly what does survival look like? Now as I mentioned, the crisis the COVID situation is a very long drawn affair. So immediately people were concerned. How long would this last? And a very natural reaction would be to compare it with SARS, and people took a- I would say, a few months perspective. And I would say rightly so. Because as we didn't understand the virus. And of course when more infomation came about and how to deal with it, we then shifted gears in turn to keep the industry, I would say, alive. So the first reaction was because there was a hard stop on travel, on gatherings, right? The industry literally fell off the cliff. The next point was what do we do to survive? So naturally the first pivot that needs to take place is Can we consider alternative arrangements? And that's where it led to the I would say accerlated adoption of technology. So technology came to the fore, where it became the well, the only alternative to face to face interactions and humans interactions."

• 

  Interview with TAN Wee Kiat (Dr) (Kiat W. Tan) 陈伟杰

  • Accession Number 003933, Track 6
  • Efforts in building Gardens by the Bay, such as investments in technology and cultivating the ecosystem as recounted by then Chief Executive Officer of Gardens by the Bay.

  "We talk about this green line of Singapore, so do you also work with societies like the nature societies or some other environmental groups? Right, to talk about bringing birds or…? It was very important for us to have the support of the green groups. Yeah, because initially when after reclamation there was a layer of greenery and wildlife that had developed, and they were very upset about having any development on these areas, but they also saw government does not reclaim land to sit idle. So, but, we brought them on board to see what are the things that they liked about nature, colonising, retained land. And we said we can provide these natural, environmental conditions that will create a kind of animal community, insect community to a very successful state. We actually try not to use any sprays and pesticides. You look at the leaves outside and you see all the holes and so forth. It indicates that we welcome wildlife even though they may damage some of the planetarium. So how much of the wildlife were sort of retained when you moved from the reclaimed land to the garden? I think the main wildlife that attracted everybody at that time were the wood ducks, the ducks that migrated and settled in the bodies of water. We now have some of them coming back. Where were they from? They were migratory on the way to China. So from where to where? Wood ducks, they come from actually the summer months in Alaska and so forth and they fly through down to the tropics in winter and then they go up to breed. So did you make special sort of plans to attract them or at least to make the conditions better? We were very practical in that the kind of environment we can create here is equatorial, so we don't try to go for temperate, vegetation or habitats. So if we could simulate some of the natural equatorial forest conditions, then we are quite assured that we will be attracting a lot of wildlife, and indeed this is what it turned out. So that in answer to people that saying that say that we are creating something very artificial, the animals are not looking at the artificial structures, but looking at the layer of life that we have managed to cultivate."

• 

  Interview with WONG Yoon Wah (Prof.)

  • Accession Number 004772, Track 23
  • Cultural Medallion recipient (1986) Professor Wong recounts his career in Chinese education and his literary pursuits, especially in the realm of Mandarin poetry.

  "那个时候，因为我觉得写东南亚是最好的；同时又是我比较熟悉，也是当时在华文世界里面，在大陆、台湾、香港他们没有办法写的。你如果是写中国，他们会比你更熟悉。因为写诗你一定要写你自己非常熟悉，能够写出别人写不到的东西。所以我上泰国— 我写过《佛国出家记》，写那些和尚怎么出家；那么也写过那个《泽国日记》，因为泰国有很多地方都是水呀，都是水，尤其是你走到郊外、到那些稻田里面，都是水。那么这些对亚洲的人可能不太提到。他不是单单是稻有水；他们上学校，那个学生上学的时候，他们都会在稻田之间坐小船上学的，做那个Sampan。那当时都非常对我来说是非常非常的新鲜的。因为他经过稻田；稻田跟稻田是相通的。因为他种的都是水稻，都是水很深的。所以都有人，那个小型的Motorboat，会载那些学生去上学。这些东西我觉得都非常有诗意啦。我们写的东西一定要，就是说，人家一读都觉得很有诗意，就是这个意思啦。（访问者：当时候除了您之外，还有谁也是比较注重写东南亚，或者是…）没有！可以说是几乎都没有。他们顶多是写写新加坡、马来西亚，很少人说，写，我写菲利宾…那么这就是引起人家比较注意的地方。他们当时像比较经常到东南亚去旅游，去因为是文化而去的话的人也不太多。那时候旅游还不是很兴盛，你就知道大概要到九十年代以后才普遍了。八十年代一般人出国还是比较少，尤其是会写作。"

  Translation: Back then, it's because I thought it was best to write about Southeast Asia; at the same time, I am more familiar with it, and it was also something that writers from the Mandarin literary world of China, Taiwan and Hong Kong were unable to write. If you wrote about China, they would be more familiar with the subject matter than you. Because [sic] writing poetry requires you to write about something that you are familiar with, something that others are not able to write about. That is why I went to Thailand — I wrote ""Fo Guo Chi Jia Ji"", about the journey of monks receiving monastic ordination; I also wrote ""Ze Guo Ri Ji"", because Thailand has so many bodies of water, there's water everywhere, especially if you walk into the outskirts, into the paddy fields, it is all water. So, these are the subject matters that Asian people [sic: East Asian] were less likely to mention. They didn’t just have water in the paddy fields; when the students went to school, they would ride little boats, sampans, between the paddies to commute. This was very very interesting to me that time. As [sic] they were going past the paddy fields; the paddies are all inter-connected. As they were all planted with rice paddies, the water was very deep. All those people, with those small models of motorboats, would ferry the students to school. These are the things I find poetic. The things we write must be something that readers find poetic. At that time, besides you, were there others who were also more focused on Southeast Asia, or... None! There was almost none. At most, they wrote about Singapore and Malaysia, they hardly wrote about, say, like I wrote about Philippines... so these were the things that caught people's attention. They often travelled to Southeast Asia for leisure; very few travelled there for cultural reasons. At that time, the tourism industry was not that prosperous yet; you would see it becoming popular only after the nineties. In the eighties, people hardly went abroad, not to mention those who were writers.

• 

  Interview with LIM Chong Yah (Prof.)

  • Accession Number E001045, Track 1
  • Former National Wages Council (NWC) Chairman describes Singapore's economic development and the process of convincing American firms to sign the final document for an NWC consensus.

  "How did I get myself involved? It’s in my – Mr Goh Chok Tong call me. He said, can you be the chairman of Skills Development Fund? I said my plate is very very full you know. I’m a Fudan professor, and my department is so big! He say, but why did you suggest Skills Development Fund? Actually I didn’t suggest, I suggest Economic Restructuring Fund, it’s a long story, how we change to Skills Development Fund. He said, maybe, you suggested it, we have the law passed in parliament, we have collected the money for Skills Development Fund, because out of the twenty percent wage increase, four percent will (…) you know, siphon the money off to the Skills Development Fund, it’s not just twenty percent, like that. Mr Lee Kuan Yew will not agree. This kind of… he’s a very pars… not parsimonious. He doesn’t want to encourage risk, loose spending among workers. He is the old-fashioned China man type. 勤(qin2), 啬(se4). Hardworking, and thrifty. Cannot just spend. He will never encourage our workers to behave, you know, that way. And he’s very strong on that lah. He encourage thriftiness, hard work. Then, so, but the money is taken to the Skills Development Fund, and we also suggest read the document, the more important is the discussion on that year... how the Skills Development Fund was born. (…) [0:55:30] [0:56:23] So we have to show them the payload, the payload… because of the boom, you know, and issue them a list of the investors coming in. They all came! They all came from Japan. And from USA. And also, all these from Germany. And they say we will take the risk! It’s hard you know, we cannot accommodate all, 20, 30 percent of them will still come, victory! They will celebrate! Before 3 years is over you know, celebrate, they will go golf course, play golf. The Chinese after a long, long… You look at all the minutes, in other words, one good thing about it is they talk their word they think thorough and they open, you know. They talk, talk and talk, until you convince them. But, how I convince these two American is, in my autobiography, shocking… in, I invited them at night to dinner… (background noise) That's one of my tactics. But I seldom had to use this one. I invited them for dinner. They say, they say that it's too high, we don't share your view, and we have long enough discussion, no point going on talk and talk. So I use another tactic. I say, well, we can still agree on so many things, except this one. Anyway, I give them the best Californian wine. It didn't work. And their beef, you know, not the Japanese one. American. US. It didn't work. So, I have to use another tactic. I say, I will arrange us to, ministry to, arrange for a separate conference only for you. So you explain to the American group why you will not sign the document consensus. You know that Japanese, that Germans, that locals have all agreed to sign, and the government side has also agreed, and the unions to the last man agreed. And they ensured there will be 100% industrial peace, they also agree. And now we won't quarrel. Okay? And a lot of training programmes and all that will come, because in it we have a lot of training programmes you know. And they said, what, what did you say? Did you say tomorrow? Thought that you said we continue to discuss! Maybe we heard you wrongly. If it is just tomorrow, no more. If there is a deadline, you normally don't have a deadline! I said but the deadline is so long! We have been talking talking so long, it must come to an end. Is that, in that case, we will agree."