Q: "The year 2000 is the 35-year anniversary of the independence of Singapore. When you look back this 35-year history, what comes up to your mind first?"

Mr Lee: "First, that 35 years is very short time in the history of a people. To be a nation, a people must have shared the same destiny for hundreds, thousands of years. Then they feel bonded to each other -- floods, famines, devastation of wars and they have been together through that. We’ve only had 35 years, so it’s very short in building nation, in building that sense of solidarity or shared destiny. But in the life of an individual, it’s nearly half my lifetime. So, I’ve seen so many changes in Singapore and the world around me, around Singapore, that I think the next 35 years, the changes will be even more dramatic."

Q: "Could you recall any particular event or time or day in the 35 years?"

Mr Lee: "Yes, the day we started was a very painful day for me, 9 August 1965, because all out of a sudden, we were out on our own and we had to make a living by ourselves. We were the administrative and the military hub of the British Empire in Southeast Asia. They had their naval base here. They had their troops here. They governed Southeast Asia, Malaysia, Borneo, Cocos Islands, Christmas Islands in the Indian Ocean from Singapore and that was our hinterland. So, when we were asked to leave Malaysia, we knew we were in for a very difficult time because they were going to bypass us and deal direct with the rest of the world. We also had at that time confrontation from Indonesia. So, the future looked very bleak, but we had to make a living for our people; at that time, it was just over two million people. So, it meant building up a new economy which, after many trials and errors, we succeeded in doing by two basic strategies.

"First, we made direct links with the industrial countries –- Europe, America, Japan –- and got their companies, their MNCs to invest in Singapore, manufacture and then re-export to the world, primarily to the developed countries. Next, we made Singapore into a First World oasis in a Third World region. In other words, in a Third World region, we created an oasis with First World standards of security, health, efficiency, communications, transportation, education, convenience for all those from the First World to come here and set up their camp, their base, their headquarters from which to do business in the region. So, those two strategies created a new economy for Singapore."

Q: "As you just said, usually, for any country, independence is something that is acquired by some means, through diplomacy, but for your country, independence was..."

Mr Lee: "Was forced upon us. We had independence thrust upon us."

Q: "And you were already leader at that time, but the leadership was not ready for independence?"

Mr Lee: "No, we were not. We were in a state of semi-shock."

Q: "What came first to your mind to unite the country, to get the identity, to plant the identity in the people in Singapore?"

Mr Lee: "We had to start with a belief, an article of faith. We are a disparate people, different peoples. Although 75 per cent were Chinese, but they came from different parts of China –- Guangdong, Fujian, further north. So, we did not have that close bond of blood relations and same languages or same dialects. We spoke different dialects. Then we have Malays and the Malays came from different parts of Southeast Asia, the Indians, too, from different parts of India and you can add a few others, Europeans and others. So, the first belief we must have is that somehow, we can submerge, embrace all these people into one national whole we share equally and fairly and we’ve been trying to do that ever since. It will take many more years before we become a nation like Japan because if you look at the Japanese, I mean, one homogenous people, same race, same language, same culture, same religion. Here, we have different races, different histories, different languages, different religions. But we are now sharing one common language and one common school education and for the men, one common military experience in National Service. So, gradually, we find common denominators."

Q: "When you started this country as an independent nation, this country didn’t have natural resources. Geographically, it’s just under the Equator. A tropical weather was not easy for people to live in and the population was, as you say only, two million. What was the blueprint you designed for the country?"

Mr Lee: "There was no blueprint. We improvised trial and error and finally came to these two strategies. But we didn’t start off with the two strategies. It’s only after four, five years that the strategy became apparent, that we said, yes, this will work. So, for several years, we were just thrashing around, trying different ways."

Q: "And international conditions in those days were not favourable to your independence, I understand, Cold War?"

Mr Lee: "No, on the other hand, the Cold War helped us."

Q: "Helped you?"

Mr Lee: "Yes, in this way –- because of the Cold War, the British, Americans, Australians and New Zealanders stayed here for some time and provided stability. Also because of the Cold War, the threat from Soviet Union, China and Vietnam brought about solidarity in the non-communist countries of Southeast Asia –- Indonesia, Malaysia, Thailand, Philippines. So, we got together in Asean. So, the Cold War for that period was beneficial in consolidating Southeast Asia and that provided stability under which development could take place."

Q: "But did all the countries understand the meaning of a difficult independence, like the situation of yours?"

Mr Lee: "Every country is worried about its position. They don’t worry about the next country’s position. We have to worry about our own."

Q: "And you have to have your own defence?"

Mr Lee: "Yes, indeed."

Q: "You have to have your own diplomacy?"

Mr Lee: "That’s a very serious drain on our resources -- manpower, budget. But you have to do it. Otherwise, how do you advance your trade links, your political ties? And if you don’t have a defence capability, you are inviting adventurers to try their luck. So, we must a defence capability."

Q: "You emerged as a political leader in the early 1950s, but that was only two, three years after you came back from England and you’d just became a lawyer here. What were the days in those days when you emerged as a political leader?"

Mr Lee: "Well, it’s not quite right to say that I came back and became a politician. That wasn’t the way it started. I became politically conscious because of the Japanese invasion and capture of Singapore because suddenly, in February 1942, a way of life, a system collapsed. We thought the British would be here for 1,000 years, but in two months, they were defeated and the Japanese military took over all the big houses, the big offices, the big shops, the big stores and governed the place. Of course, we also suffered because there was no trade and as the war went on, in 1944, 1945, no shipping. So, food was scarce, medicine was scarce. But it was a very severe lesson for us in that in the end, we have to look after ourselves.

"First, the Japanese came and in the first few weeks, they were very harsh. Many people died. Innocent people who were just picked up, suspected of being anti-Japanese or having helped the Nationalist Government in China with funds to fight the Japanese. Next, when the British came back, by that time, my political consciousness had already increased. So, I could see that they were not interested in our future. They were interested in their country, in their future and what they could get out of Singapore and Malaysia. So, that made me, first, an anti-colonialist and then my years in England confirmed my views that they are not superior, that we can govern ourselves. So, when I came back, my friends and I, after three, four years in England, had already grouped together and decided that we would form a group, form a party, get mass support and demand independence from the British, which was what happened. So, we started working with the unions and as a lawyer, I became a legal adviser to many unions, often for free, to consolidate our mass support.

"So, when you say that I came back and went into politics, that meant that suddenly, I decided to do it. No. My political consciousness began in February 1942 and for my whole generation, my colleagues and I, that was a defining moment, a traumatic and a defining moment. If you ask me, the fall of Singapore marked the end of European empires, that an Asian power, thought to be weak, incapable, squint-eye bowlegged came in and in two months, knocked out a bigger army. After that, the myth of the supremacy of the white man was finished."

Q: "But it took years for you to seek independence?"

Mr Lee: "Yes, of course."

Q: "In that sense, what do you think is the leadership... You became the leader of that movement against the British colonial rule and also to lead the country into safe independent state. What do you think is the qualification of leadership, from your experience?"

Mr Lee: "First, you must have a burning desire inside to want to do something for people, not for yourself. If you are going to do it for yourself, you cannot mobilise, you cannot inspire people. So, you must have that motivation, that sense of vision, that sense of purpose that people can feel. I mean, the unions that I worked for, the leaders and the members, can see that I was spending a lot of time, Sundays in the nights, listening to them, studying their salary scales, their conditions of work to go and argue with the employers, to go before an arbitration court to argue their case. So, unconsciously, they can feel that we are different. We are not doing this for money. In fact, we did it for free. So, there was...

"First, you need a certain overpowering desire to do something about changing the life of people for the better. After that, you must have the ability to communicate, to express, articulate, to mobilise, to inspire people and say, "Look, let’s go this way. We can do it.". And, third, you must be consistent. You cannot say one thing and another thing tomorrow. Then nobody will believe you. You have to keep your word and you have to be transparent and clear and they can see that you are honest with them. Those are very important qualities."

Q: "Those are the points, but you also asked for your people, for the leaders, to help?"

Mr Lee: "Yes, of course, because otherwise... You know, every government makes mistakes, it’s not possible not to make mistakes. But if the mistakes are honestly made and not for personal benefit, the people will forgive you and will continue to support you. But if they think you are a crook and you are doing this for some special personal reason, that you benefited from it, then I think you are in trouble. You can’t carry them. In the next elections, you will lose. So, although we’ve made mistakes in the last 35 years, the support has never gone down below 60 per cent, always above 60 per cent, because they know they were honestly made and not very many of them."

Q: "I recall the first trip I made to Singapore some ten years ago and the first souvenir I bought was a T-shirt saying that Singapore is a "fine city"..."

Mr Lee: "Yes."

Q: "And l learnt the word "fine" means several other things..."

Mr Lee: "Yes, yes."

Q: "And discipline and rules are very important in this country?"

Mr Lee: "Well, as I explained at the beginning, we had to make this a Third World country into a First World oasis. There are two parts to this. First, the infrastructure -– roads, telephones, telecommunications, good schools, good buildings. That’s easy. You can get good contractors, good consultants, they can build for you. But the behaviour of people –- not to spit, not to deface buildings, to keep public toilets clean, to behave courteously to one another –- that’s very difficult, to change Third World habits into First World habits. So, it has to be through a long process of education. First, you mount a campaign.

"For instance, we had an anti-spitting campaign. You know, the Chinese they spit everywhere. If you go to China, you can see them. And we started this very early. We say this is no good. This is a Third World habit. You spread tuberculosis, you spread all kinds of bad germs and diseases. So, we started with the schoolchildren, educated them, mass media and got the message home to the parents. And then we fine people. After they have been educated, they still do it, we fine them. And slowly, it has subsided. So, I don’t see it has stopped. Sometimes, you still see some people do it, but very seldom.

In this way, we also stop them from littering, from defacing, vandalism, you know, graffiti on the walls. Of course, the Western correspondents, mass media made fun of us. It’s a "fine city". It’s alright."

Q: "I remember one incident, that was about five years ago, 18-year-old American boy was punished with cane. It was big news all over the world."

Mr Lee: "No, but Singaporeans don’t do that. How can you take a can of spray paint and go into somebody’s condominium and spray-paint windscreens, paint bodywork and so on, 15, 20 cars and steal the signboards of road signs? I mean, it cannot be done. In America, I suppose if you cane him, it’s an infringement of human rights, but because we do that, there’s very little vandalism. As you can see, the walls are clean. So, we maintain First World standards although the First World has gone down since I was a student in England. When I was a student in England, I was very impressed. This was just after the War. Very orderly city, very courteous, very polite, very honest. Newspapers on sale on the roads outside the Tube station. Nobody there, just a box and coins and notes. You take it, you put your coins there. That’s really a First World city. We try to be like that."

Q: "British people may be forgetting that, but...?"

Mr Lee: "No, I think a new generation, or several generations already since then, 1940s, two generations, they have become less proud of themselves. They have lost the empire. There isn’t the same pride which made them a really First World people."

Q: "And probably, Singapore was one of the places that...?"

Mr Lee: "We try, but if we don’t maintain standards, we will soon go down again because there is no such thing as a permanent well-behaved population."

Q: "That’s why you are constantly asking and encouraging people...?"

Mr Lee: "To improve."

Q: "Talking about the high standard in the country, in the community, the Western media often criticises the way you control the media and I remember one of the columnists in the New York Times has a dispute with you. He characterised you as a dictator. But media freedom or press freedom is often regarded as one of the highest virtues of a democratic community."

Mr Lee: "That’s an American point of view. I was student in England in the 1940s and I remember the communist speakers standing up to say "There is no press freedom in this country" because the press was owned by press barons, the lords, people with enormous, successful enterprises and they gave the communists no chance of any publicity. They can’t even hire meeting halls, convenient meeting halls on special occasions. Always, they are pushed to the side. So, when I hear this press freedom, freedom for whom? For the citizen? For the owner? Or for the journalists? I think it’s for the owner.

Of course, they now pretend that editorial independence and so on, but if you watch the way in which editors are changed when they don’t comply with the policy of the paper, you will know that it is finally the board of the company that owns the newspaper or the TV station that decides a particular policy. You support privatisation, you support corporation, you support public ownership, you support free trade, you support protectionism. Day by day, this is a propaganda battle.

"So, we have not stopped the foreign press. What we have done -- and this is also for our own press -- is that if you publish something which is not accurate or something which is slanted against the Singapore Government and you sell your paper or programme in Singapore, we demand the right of reply. You must allow us a reply in the same prominent way. Now, they refused. So, we said, "Then, you can’t sell". So, they agreed. Now that we have the right of reply, their misreporting, their slant in the stories have diminished because they know that we can reply in their columns and they will not appear so good. Is that muzzling the press? I don’t think so. They can say what they want. We must have the right to defend ourselves. I think that’s fair. We have not banned them."

Q: "One of the reasons why I asked this question is that that’s the question we have to ask ourselves and one of the points these days is that the television media often becomes a stakeholder rather than a bystander and that often makes the world move to some direction, TV cameras in the war zone..."

Mr Lee: "Oh, yes, of course."

Q: "The interviews..."

Mr Lee: "Yes, yes, they are setting the agenda. Many of the interventions by the American Government is because their TV, especially CNN, focuses on that issue, whether it’s Bosnia or Kosovo, the two latest examples. But, of course, when it’s Chechnya, then it’s different. Then they don’t show such horrific scenes or even East Timor where it’s not vital to their strategic interests. So, it is selective and, therefore, it is important for the Asian media to grow big and to go international. Sooner or later, we will have, if we want our voice to be heard, then the Japanese media, the Korean media, the Chinese media and the Asean media must somehow be able to project our voices beyond our countries. It can be done. It will be very slow because we don’t have the same resources, but it should be done."

Q: "The technology of information is developing so rapid and that is making almost all the people of all levels equal in terms of means of communicating with others. Will that change?"

Mr Lee: "I’m not so sure it is so equal. I mean, theoretically, yes, you are equal, that on the Internet telephony, eventually, everybody can get his voice heard. I’m not so sure that it’s true. First, you must have the wealth and the resources to build up that credibility. I mean, anybody can put junk on the Internet. Who looks at it? There’s an overload of information. So, people will only go and look at those websites where there is already a reputation for truth and reliability and that needs resources, time and a brand name. I mean, how can a small country like, say, Laos or Cambodia get people to watch their website? But if you put a website, NHK, you say, "Ah, yes, maybe, I’ll look at it. If it is in English, I’ll try this screen and look at it." So, I do not think it is that equal. Theoretically, yes, the playing field is level, but, in fact, some players go down with heavier weight, better muscles, higher skills."

Q: "Let me ask you a couple more things. One is about the leadership. In order to ask your people, encourage people to keep high standards, leaders, politicians have to keep high standards?"

Mr Lee: "Yes, of course. Otherwise, you are a hypocrite and you are destroyed. People won’t believe what you say. It’s not possible to preach morality and be immoral. It’s very difficult. If you say, "Let’s be honest. Let us do things the honest way" but you are siphoning off public funds. It’s not possible to keep it secret. I mean, you look at the unfortunate case of former Chancellor Kohl. He never got any benefit from the money, but because he kept this party donation in a special fund which he used for the party, he is now in a very deep trouble and his party has suffered a credibility problem. So, it is important when you do these things to remember that nothing is totally secret. Your Secretary will know that you have signed this order and somehow, someday, somebody will dig it out and then you are in trouble. So, you have to keep a certain standard to insist that others keep that standard."

Q: "Thirty-five years after independence, do you think it is easy to ask your younger generation here in this country to have that high motivation, to keep that high standard altogether in the future?"

Mr Lee: "It is more difficult because the harshness of life that I went through, they have not been through. So, that tampering process, you know, when you put a clay into a kiln, then it comes out porcelain, it’s been tampered. But all the same, I think you can maintain certain high standards by habit and, of course, you have to pay ministers and civil servants properly. You can’t expect them to live on, say, one-quarter the salary of their peers in the private sector. And so, if you become a doctor or lawyer or company chief executive, you have all these huge incomes and private cars and so on and entertainment and if you are a minister or a permanent secretary or vice-minister, you are supposed to lead the life of a monk. That’s not possible. So, we have adjusted that and we now pay our ministers and our civil servants a formula based on 70 per cent of the salaries of the private sector of their equals. So, it’s adjusted every year depending on what the private sector earns. So, there is no reason why they cannot maintain high standards."

Q: "One last question for today. You made this country a garden city, I understand?"

Mr Lee: "We try to."

Q: "You are trying to. British people, when we look back in history, brought plants from this continent and from that continent and brought those plants to new colonies and cultivated sugar or cotton or rubber, I understand, so that they can make money. But instead you made this country a beautiful, one of the most beautiful cities in the world. What is the philosophy behind that?"

Mr Lee: "When I was a student in London, I was impressed by the number of parks they had all over the city. So, you cannot almost feel you are in the countryside sometimes. It’s not so impressive now because more tall buildings have gone round these parks, but at that time, the buildings were not so high-rise and they grew beautiful flowers –- roses, tulips, all sorts of flowers in the spring and summer and even autumn. And I decided this was a real civilisation. It added to the real graciousness of life. You can’t measure this by GDP, but it’s an enjoyment for everybody. It lifts up the morale, the spirits of the people.

"So, when I noticed how Third World cities become concrete jungles, I decided we must reverse that. So, we tried little islands, little pockets and wherever we can afford it, a park. We even had the Japanese Government give us several experts on Japanese landscape gardening. They came in the late 1960s, early 1970s, so that each little island, traffic island, we’ll put up plants with shrubs in proper shapes. So, it’s a object of beauty. They went back and then it soon became, it lost its shape. So, we called them back again. So, they said that "our officers were not trained landscape architects, they were just gardeners". But these people had been trained, they were good artists in schools. So, we changed our system and we also look for people with the aesthetic sense, so, certain shapes and proportions. And it adds to the morale, the spirits of a people and makes life less harsh."

Q: "And keeping the country green..."

Mr Lee: "Yes."

Q: "And keeping the people in high esteem?"

Mr Lee: "There must be a certain degree of pride in your city."

Q: "Thank you very much."

Mr Lee: "Thank you."

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